simolinic

marieyall:

simolinic:

Okay, sorry I don’t know you and if I’m butting in, but this is the public internet; and also everything I’m about to say, even though at moments it doesn’t sound like it, comes from love and exuberance (at times a not-so-speculative sciencey love) and I would be more than happy to continue this discussion either on Tumblr or over tea, because I’m on the internet but I’m also in Athens and that’s all pertinent:

Here’s some of what I’m getting from you.

Temporary. Fragile. Scary. Collapse.

“I have more faith in more concrete things, like information itself … than the virtual methods we use to find it.”

Which, yeah, is understandable. But my response to that is:

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Hey, if you want to discuss anything over coffee and tea those are magic words to me, I’m at ERC a lot. But this will be really scattered so heyyyyy!

(I’m going to see if this conversation-emulation technique of intercutting your quotes makes sense on Tumblr.)

ERC = Espresso Royale? I drive by there every day to/from work but I’ve never been. My house is closer to multiple Jittery Joe’ses, so that’s my Athens beverage depot.

The “Temporary. Fragile. Scary. Collapse.” seems like a really paranoid set of words to draw from what I said, and maybe that’s how it came across,

That’s not the entirety of what you said, but it’s the thread that grabbed me. Those are trigger words for me, and so while that’s a somewhat unfair colorization of your words, they were a theme.

but being from the country, one of the slowest places in America to receive new technology and things like that, I catch on to new things much more slowly than a lot of my friends seem to. Er I don’t know if that makes any sense.

It does make sense, and isn’t wrong at all. The rapid adoption of new tech and ideas is how I tend, but I try to mitigate that with thorough consideration. In many ways it might be better not to constantly introduce certain classes of newness into your life; though I’m not sure what I mean by that exactly.

Anyway, you make a lot of good points. I suppose the thing about the books is that to me, as someone who loves books — not just ‘literature’, but books, just like someone loves paintings, not ‘art,’ or the piano, not ‘music’

This is an important distinction, and one I sympathize with — I love the piano, but only have a decent synth keyboard to play regularly. It is, decidedly, not the same. For me the MIDI capability is worth it, but I absolutely love going to my family’s house and banging away on the old upright there.

— my enjoyment of books comes from not only the content but the format. Just like how people feel about vinyl or paintings (and there are people who value content over format). I mean the Kindle (and et cetera) is a substitute for reality in that it attempts to create a virtual experience replicating that of a book

So then is it possible that a less-book-like device might actually be more acceptable for certain reading? Or are we in the uncanny valley, where it’s similar enough to a book that it feels familiar, but is still nowhere near a real book and so generates a revulsion?

— and even if a book is a substitute for reality, the Kindle (also meaning its peers) is another degree of separation from reality (personally I don’t consider books a substitute for reality).

The tricky thing about reality is that it’s relative. For some people, the internet still isn’t “real.” For others, it’s a thing that lives in their pockets and in their consciousness and it’s always there and it’s composed of real people doing things, and is is just as real as anything else.

Also the tricky thing about “reality” is that talking about it like I am is essentially over-academicizing it. Maybe?

Books are more than words.

Agreed. Avowed bibliophile, raising my hand and looking longingly at the bookshelf over my own personal shoulder right now.

And I’m not sure I want anything of mine to last forever. Sure, the thought is kind of cool…I know that the things I own and enjoy now aren’t going to last forever, but neither am I, and I’m okay with that. I already feel strange enough about parts of me being on the Internet, like a Deadjournal I wrote when I was 14 and I can’t remember the password to and I can’t delete it, lasting beyond the time I want them to.

But then when you’re seventy, if you had deleted the Deadjournal, might you miss that potentially-valuable touchstone to your youth? I’ve never been seventy, but I have been 20-ish, when I reread my abandoned Livejournal and learned a tremendous amount about my development. No, I don’t want anyone now to read that and form an opinion about me, but I don’t want to delete it. You never know.

I don’t have an interest in preserving things I like or make forever. I’m perfectly ok with my books and my records and my everything decaying; that’s what I’m doing.

Well, and, yeah I sort of said the decaying thing… and it’s true. And I’m not obsessed with leaving my “mark on the world” or a legacy or whatever… absolute permanence isn’t the issue. I wouldn’t mind ditching my accumulated furniture and starting again from scratch. And I’ve lost things I’ve made often enough to forgo attachment. But even if I never look at a story I wrote a few years ago, I certainly don’t mind that it still exists, and that I or someone else could read it if they wanted to.

iPod breaks - I am annoyed by iPod breaks. I use an iPod on very rare occasion to listen to music while running sometimes or to transfer music between other computers. I use mine maybe 2-3 times a month. I’m not sure if this is relevant.

I think it is relevant, because you might feel differently if it were more a regular part of your life. But its fragility and frustration are what prevent it from really integrating with your activities, maybe? Which is part of my original point - would these things be more acceptable if they reached a point where they weren’t so fickle?

And the world you describe — I guess I already said what I feel about preserving things forever. Human civilizations and cultures and art and music and literature and customs and habits and relationships and creations of any kind are not meant to last forever,

I disagree with the “meant to,” in that there are way too many colossal structures that were obviously “meant to” last forever by their constructors. Or at least long enough as to seem like forever. You may be referring not to human intent but to some more cosmic-type intent, in which case I can’t comment because there’s no data on that point either way.

none have even survived a few thousand years, so “forever” seems so extreme. I don’t want my attitude to sound like “just because we didn’t do it in the past means we can’t do it now or in the future” but that’s how the world works — species come and go and die and thrive but none have lasted forever.

Yet.

Not that forever is even the big thing, and actually species aren’t either, but more in that… I want to know that new things are happening. That new things can happen. Because they are and can, and that’s what keeps me vigorous. Even if they’re little nuance variations, or new ways to approach a problem, or whatever, it’s ingenuity that really lights my bunsen.

I feel no motivation to change this. I don’t see a lot of ‘innovation’ as ‘progress,’ but maybe that’s another discussion.

Right. Me-as-technophile is like, “Whaaaa” at that, but the more of me that values calmness of thought and a better life, not just better decorations and distractions for the same or worsening life — I completely understand your point.

Convenience — I feel uncomfortable becoming dependent on so many things. I like to find a balance between convenience and work. ‘Work’ in this paragraph meaning walking instead of driving. Going to the record store instead of iTunes. Et cetera.

Understood and agreed, I think. I don’t like shortcutting for its own sake. However, I like that I don’t have to grow and hunt all my own food, because it gives me time to focus and specialize in other areas. That’s not a direct analogue to iTunes-vs-record store, but there’s value in shifting that attention, sometimes. But then of course you lose touch with where your food comes from, etc., and it’s all a mess, really.

And I’m not set on preserving fossil fuel use or anything, I’m all for development in that area…I think it’s essential for humans to find a way to survive in the world we’ve created that doesn’t destroy it. I wouldn’t hesitate to incorporate alternative energy into my life, but I also wouldn’t throw it in the same category as personal devices (the iPod, the Kindle, et cetera).

No, they’re not the same, but they belong to the same movement. The concurrent development of various fields that benefit each other, and where in a more-or-less indirect way, the desire to be entertained (iPod) leads to innovations (better batteries) that reduce the damage from another area (automobiles can use batteries to recapture the friction energy of their brakes to reduce overall gas consumption, etc.). And the general human thing of making new and better.

Really to respond well to your post I’d have to read it a few more times, and I’m not good at discussing anything in an organized fashion, but I guess what I’d like to stress is that I don’t really care [personally] about anything lasting forever. In a hundred years, if nothing exists to prove that I ever recorded a song, that’s fine. I won’t be in a position to care either way. Why should my un-revolutionary ideas persist longer than my life?

That denies the possibility that you might one day (or already) have revolutionary ideas. Or at least valuable ideas. Valuable to you or someone else.

I personally can’t really get out of bed on days when I feel like there’s no chance whatsoever that I won’t come up with something at least marginally valuable.

That leads into a discussion of how so many Web users find every thought of theirs so important to require documentation —

Well, see, “Web users” just means “people,” and again, people want to be valuable and valued and to produce things that have meaning and personal significance. Hence diaries, conversations, music, skyscrapers, and everything.

and yes, maybe I’m kind of guilty,

I don’t consider it anything to be guilty of.

but I like looking back on this blog, and I like reading what my friends have to say, and I like being able to express myself,

Those are all perfectly good and wonderful reasons!

but I definitely don’t want my Tumblr to be what anyone remembers about me — ok that’s another time.

Well, okay, maybe; but right now all I know of you is your Tumblr from the last month or two, and I enjoy knowing that much. If only because we’re loosely-connected, via stephenhouser and Athens and age-range and music-making. Even if we never have any other interaction, I consider this Tumblr thing (and, more broadly, the internet thing (but then, even more broadly, the people-thinking-and-communicating-thing)) to be pretty valuable and interesting and worthwhile.

Anyway, I feel kind of grumbly, but not ‘set in my ways’ in the crotchety old man sense, just that I like a lot of things and have a lot of interests, but iPhones and Kindles and similar things don’t fall within that realm, and I don’t want them.

And despite how it feels sometimes, you are under no obligation whatsoever to be iPhoned or Kindled or otherwise encumbered. None of us are. Only when they can bring some value or enjoyment are they worth the potential confusion/overstimulation/inescapability.

Really, the Kindle irks me so because of its treatment of books — and that’s me taking something personally that’s not personal at all.

I actually think it might be personal, but I’m not sure how and that might be another interesting vein to follow.

One other quick thing: is it possible that the people who made the Kindle are book-lovers, too, and this is their clumsy first draft at making something that might one day carry the spirit of “the book” and in some way improve upon it? That doesn’t change how stupid the thing is now, but I just wonder.

So, anyway, I don’t know if this pseudo-discussion has been helpful in any way, but I’ve enjoyed thinking about it. I’m excited about these topics, but I don’t have a definite position. If you want to continue this discussion, or if you want to meet “for real” for a bit in town and put faces with text, you can email me at my tumblr username @gmail.com.